Episode 5: Sharon Prior

EPISODE 5: Sharon Prior- Practicus Digital Transformation Podcast

Sharon Prior talks to us about transforming one of the oldest businesses in the world, the Post Office. How do you tackle a 350-year-old start-up? Sharon is a seasoned CIO with global experience in business transformation and operations. She’s worked across multiple industries, including financial services, banking, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, retail, oil, and gas and logistics.

James Rowson  0:02  

Hello, everyone, I’m James Rowson. 


Dave Kemble  0:04  

And I’m Dave Kemble. And this is the Practicus…


James Rowson  0:07  

Digital Transformation Podcast.


Hello, everyone. This week, we’re incredibly excited to be joined in the studio by Sharon. Sharon is a seasoned IT executive with global experience in business transformation and operations. She’s worked across multiple industries, including financial services, banking, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, retail, oil, and gas and logistics. She works as a strategic partner and is focused on building and delivering it and digital strategies and solutions closely aligned with business goals. Welcome, Sharon. 


Sharon Prior  0:53  

Hi, thank you very much. 


James Rowson  0:55  

No problem at all. Lovely to have you here. In keeping with tradition, the first question we’re asking everyone is quite simply, what does digital mean to you?


Sharon Prior  1:04  

It’s a great question. And, and I think, depending on who asked me the question, I’ll give a different answer. And so the dictionary definition of digital very clear is all about digits and, and technology enabling things to happen. That’s the the basic and dictionary definition. But when I was appointed in my in the robot, I mean now, which is about two months ago, I joined IMI Critical Engineering. And I was explaining to a friend of mine on a zoom chat that I just been appointed into this role as divisional digital director, and she was like making all the right noises. Wow, that sounds really great. You know, what will you be doing? You know, how, what, where’s the company face? In the background was a 11 year old son, I didn’t realize that he was actually in the room where while they were talking, and he popped his head into the camera view and says, what does the digital actually mean? What do you actually going to be doing? And I think, well, I’m digitizing the business. But what do you mean by that? And it was quite interesting when he asked the question, even joining IMI everyone has a different perspective on what digital actually means. But for me, digital is really around for our company. It’s about how you actually engage with your customers, and how you use the technology to do that engagement, and how you actually drive value through that capability. It isn’t all just about the technology, there are lots of other elements that are surrounding it. And that needs to be considered. And so for me did digital really does depend on who you’re talking to, and what they’re actually trying to achieve. And whether or not digital can enable that.


Dave Kemble  2:57  

You make a really good point there. That seems to be a theme that we’re finding is the interpretation of digital is different across organizations, let alone sectors and individuals, it really does have very different interpretations. So it’s a, it’s a key part to understand that everybody’s on the same page, and everyone understands what digital does mean to them and the company. 


Sharon Prior  3:25  

Exactly. And I think that’s the real key. Because every organization I’ve worked in, whether they’re going through any form of transformation, it’s about really understanding what is what is it we want we’re trying to achieve? And then you start to look at, okay, so what enabling factors can we implement to make it happen? Rather than saying, we’ve got all this technology that so happened to be digital, or we’re going to create a new website. And then that makes us more digital because we’re connected in with the customer. That doesn’t answer the question of what it is we’re trying to achieve. And it always for me starts with the Why? And I’m always evangelizing about the power of the Why? Because once you understand why you can then work on the house. 


Dave Kemble  4:16  

That’s really interesting because on that, so different sectors will have different interpretations and different understandings of the why. And that leads me on to a question regarding a major role that you played in one of the largest and most heavily scrutinized digital transformations in the UK at the time for a one of the government organisations. Can you talk to us about your role there and your achievements in that digital transformation in some detail and give some context?


Sharon Prior  4:51  

Yeah, I think you’re talking about the post office and where I was there for just over four years. And it’s interesting because before I joined the post office, I looked at the business from the outside in well known brand on the high street, literally every High Street has a post office in operation. And, and it was it for me, it was just all about the mails and the Postal Service. But it’s much more than that. It’s a very, very complex business. And what I discovered, so when I joined in August 2015, post office at that time was three years in to a five year business transformation. And that business transformation included a, a separation from Royal Mail. And so Royal Mail went privatized post office remained wholly owned by the government. And as part of that separation from Royal Mail, it meant splitting out the company, the legal entities of the company, but also the organizational structures of it, and the technology that supported it. So post office embarked on this five year Transformation Program. So roll forward three years, I land in 2015. And the remit was to do a technology transformation, which engaged a new way of working internally within within post office. So it was almost like a Greenfield site, you know, the the phase that was going around the corridors of both office, was it say, a 350 year old startup?


How do you digitize a company that has that much legacy, and not just in the infrastructure, but also in the people in the processes. And so for me, it was it was a phenomenal opportunity to get to the heart of working for a real British institution that had complexity beyond measure. And, you know, the, as I explained before, they have a business process, this is really focused on postal services, very close connection into Royal Mail with the post office branches. And there were 11,600, post office branches at the time when I joined. And these branches have a wealth of infrastructure that needs to be supported in there. Because not only do the branches have to deal with postal services, but they also have to deal with Insurance Services, which was one of the the industries post office was in financial services. So banking, mortgages, loans, those sorts of things, telecommunication was another and the big element was also on the home office, a partnership. So there was a lot of government services on identity management, that was also managed in branch. So it’s a very, very complex business model, with legacy infrastructure, and legacy business processes that needed to move into a digitized and capability. And that was quite a challenge. So in I land with a very complex it structure that is out heavy outsource, I mean, almost entirely outsource to third party tier one and suppliers and having to walk the business through how that transformation needs to happen was phenomenal. 


Dave Kemble  8:29  

How do you start with something like that, where you’ve got in, and as you say, 350 year old startup? First of all, you’ve got to be thinking about that cultural shift, I would imagine, but what was your thoughts? How did you start to tackle that change?


Sharon Prior  8:51  

It is interesting, because I can look back and reflect on how I tackled it. And the sort of journey I went through and, you know, down some dead ends and back again, and then changing tact and and and replanning. But looking back, they were really four main elements that the transformation took on. The first obviously, was the technology. I mean, that’s the fundamental looking at the legacy technology, transferring it over from the Royal Mail domain into a post office domain. But supporting that technology. You had the business processes that drove how those that technology was constructed. You have the data that sat on that technology, and then you have the cultural change that needed to happen with people realizing especially people who’ve been in post office an awful long time and grown up through the rock Royal Mail era and the level of thinking that was needed and the mind shift change that was needed was phenomenal. Walking away from a very much, you know, a Royal Mail-led business into a business that needed to stand up on its own feet and grow up. And so the cultural shift change, I think was underestimated at the time, is only now I can look back and think, you know that culture did change over time, but it wasn’t planned. And it really, you know, we when we get to get on to talking about your business transformation and how you actually do it, especially digital transformation, there is a planning element that needs to happen. And you need to weave the units together the domains together. 


James Rowson  10:32  

Absolutely. And you mentioned earlier, but any one of the critical things is how you engage with your customers in a digital transformation. And, as you just alluded to, you know, with that example, the customers were both, you know, I suppose, internal and external customers for the transformation. And one of the things we’ve discussed with you before Sharon is, is, you know, it’s critical to understand that customer journey. And so for such a complex transformation, I mean, can you talk about, you know, your approach to that? How did you? How did you go about it, you know, things that how often did you check it? Because it must be, it must have been absolutely critical to make sure that you, you got it right, from the very start to make sure that the transformation went as smoothly as it did Really?


Sharon Prior  11:13  

Yeah, it’s a really great point, because whenever any business is going through transformation, but specifically digital transformation, there are benefits that are, you know, identified right at the very beginning, what is it we want to get from this transformation? And that’s actually the really easy bit. The conundrum is really looking at, if we want to become much more customer centric, and all businesses raise that as a as a key element, you know, every mission statements, really underlying is about being more customer centric. How do you make that customer centricity actually work? And for me, it was how do we stay the company into a place that really the customer is at the focal point in the heart of all of our transformation efforts, but specifically digital transformation efforts. And for me, that was really about understanding the customer journey, and the customer journeys, the touch points, the customer hands within the organization. And the problem, I think, that we faced certainly in in post office and many organizations face This is that most businesses have constructed in a hierarchy were very siloed divisions. And each of those silo divisions will touch a customer point at some point. But until you look across the whole of the division on how that that journey is mapped out, it’s really difficult to understand which bits to change, because you can change them all individually, but without changing them in a in a unified way. You know, you couldn’t, you couldn’t, as we did, you know, we have a very clear targets within our branch network. And within our call center, within our websites within our apps, all of these have, you know, metrics to how you measure customer engagement and how you know, we have KPIs that we use to help with the performance in those touch points. But not doing it end to end across the whole journey. So a customer coming into post office may start their journey on the web. Or they may start in the branch and they end up on the web, or vice versa. So all call the call center because they’ve got an issue with a product they already have. In their mind, it’s all post office or whatever the business is, they don’t see I’m calling the branch or I’m calling the call center, or I’m looking on the web or I’m using the app, they want to understand or they want to feel that the company understands them end to end. And we’ve only got to look at companies that haven’t really understood this and got this and Amazon You know, I’m a big fan of the Amazon philosophy of always day one philosophy and for those listeners who don’t, who haven’t heard it, you know, head under a rock or something.


But the the Amazon philosophy of day one is about having a culture within an organization that keeps everyone focused on what they’re there to do and for Amazon that’s all about servicing their customers. And that’s how they’ve developed out their innovation over the years from starting as a online bookseller to becoming what they are today. You know, that’s all about listening to the customer and continuously improving that customer journey and the customer touchpoints You know, my husband thinks I’ve got shares in Amazon. the only the only on line store that I actually use, you know, religiously practically almost every day. For everything from, you know, pencil to, you know, a lawnmower, everything I bought from Amazon because I know, they know me and I get really great service. And if I want to return something I can and it’s very easy, I don’t have to think about it. And if all businesses use that philosophy, in their ambitions to become more customer centric, you know, learn from the best, and really understand what is it the Amazon did to make that happen? But it’s all about that customer journey and really mapping that out.


James Rowson  15:36  

You’ve actually then my next question was going to be based on the Amazon example you just given so you’ve, you’ve saved me a job there. So thank you very much. But I was gonna sum up the question was going to be, you know, how important is it? And how, how difficult is it to get a truly personalized customer journey? And obviously, again, I was gonna say, we’ve seen the Amazon reaping the rewards of that at the moment, but it must have been even more difficult, you know, potentially with so many legacy systems in such a, potentially an old school mentality. That must have been a pretty hard? Not a hard sell, but it must have been a pretty hard thing to implement across the business pretty quickly. 


Sharon Prior  16:13  

Yeah, you know, one of the problems that most businesses have today is the fact they are steeped in legacy, you know, legacy infrastructure, architecture, legacy business models, and that actually makes it so much harder for a business to change quickly and to adapt to changing customer needs. And, you know, another great example that I that I always use is is Tesla, you know, I, again, another big fan of Tesla, and, you know, I think that, you know, they are a technology company that has moved moving the the automobile industry in a way that you just couldn’t have imagined, you know, 15 years ago. But what they really do well, is they really try to understand how to adapt to changing customer needs. And they built up an organization that is so agile, they can change really, really quickly. There was an example a couple of years ago, where someone tweeted about Tesla, their Tesla experience where they tried to go to a charging point. And one of these fast types of Tesla charging points, and some one who was inconsiderate, had left their car parked there all day, and they couldn’t find a person couldn’t find another charging point in the close proximity. Elon Musk caught this tweet and responded to the customer and said, I didn’t realize this was a problem, let me look into it. And we will address it within six weeks, six weeks Tesla change their their model around how they use the charging point. So if you own a Tesla, you go to Tesla’s fast speed changing point now and your car becomes fully charged, you get charged for idle time. That couldn’t happen if the the the backend, customer touchpoints weren’t all joined up. And so for me, the biggest problem customers that companies have to face organizations have to face is having Brett to break down the silos across their organization, and to really address those at that end to end journey. And really, that only can happen. Well, if you really look at the way the organization and the operating model is structured around those customer journeys. So rather than having just the branch network and just a, a website, or a call center, you have the customer journey as the business stream. And that customer journey owner looks at it right across the piece. And they manage end to end. So if something happens in the on the app that needs to be reflected and in the store or in on the website or in the call center. They can make that happen because they’ve got the end to end visibility of it. 


Dave Kemble  19:28  

So it’s about getting your customers to really engaged with you. It sounds like that and then reacting accordingly to what your customers are telling you. Amazon we mentioned them earlier. They do that very well. You buy anything within a week you get the mail or message saying how did we do with the warehouse the delivery is the give us a review on the product. How do you manage in an organization like post office to get your customers to share their journey with you, because I can imagine that a more challenging prospect.


Sharon Prior  20:13  

Yeah, I mean, luckily one of the one of the benefits of working for a company, specifically my post office, is that, as I mentioned before, there were 11,600 branches of post office across the UK. So there is actually one post office, and within three miles of every adult in the UK, you know, and that is a phenomenal network. So gathering customer feedback is actually pretty easy for a company like like, post up, it’s good. And virtually everyone uses a post office, all the pumps of their services. So gathering the customer feedback, is really about understanding what it is the customer wants you to do, end to end how the customer wants you to engage with them. And that’s the important concept, because this isn’t about improving the way you do business. It’s about improving the way the customer engagement is happening. And so improving customer satisfaction, for me is really about that in depth, individual touch point is no good. Having fantastic website experience, if when someone goes into a branch, they literally, you know, they can’t find what they want, or they don’t get great service. And because it tarnishes the brand that the company has, so whether you’re in retail, or in banking, or in finance, or whatever it is that that is customer centricity needs to go right across the whole of the organization. So breaking down the silos and really looking at the way the operating model of the business is structured. And so that those silos are breaking down, and you operate the business on a customer journey basis. So, you know, for you, I’m trying to give you some examples. So if, for instance, I was going to buy a new home, and I was using a state agent, and you know, my experience with the state agent is, you know, I want to look for a new house, I want to go and have a viewing of that house, or if I decide I want to purchase it, then, you know, I then need to go down the conveyancing route. And then I’ve got to move home. So there’s a number of customer journeys that are involved in in estate agents and conveyancing and it’s understanding each of those customer journeys, they all can be different, but they’ll have different touch points within the business, you start to restructure the organization. So it’s looking at the touch points, rather than looking at a function within the business. 


James Rowson  23:04  

I think that’s a really good example. I’ve I’ve moved house twice in my adult life. And both times I use different sets of lawyers, conveyances estate agencies, and my experience was incredibly different across both, I think one was about as you just alluded to, one was incredibly truncated, you know, using different parties for different things. And it was, it was a real challenge. But one was a really seamless, you know, they had they had a web portal whereby I could check the progress on every status and every and every every step that I was taking. And there was a lot of great real time communication. So actually, I didn’t think about that. But that is a really good example of excellent, an excellent customer journey. 


Sharon Prior  23:41  

Yeah, I would, that’s one of the things that I was doing at postoffice when I was the digital channel director. And it’s creating personas. And it just so happened whilst I was at pasted is I I got married and moved home, in fact, moved in a completely different area. And my mum went to work overseas, so I live overseas. And so there was a lot of lifestyle changes that I went through. And when I looked at what post office actually offered in terms of products, so you know, postal service, and financial services, insurance, telecommunications, and identity management, it made me it started, I started to really grasp the customer journey proposition much more fully, because the personas were you know, Sharon, and I wouldn’t say my age, but x age. You know, with, you know, grown up children and remarried. So there’s a number of life events that have happened. So if I’m moving home, one of the things that could put that post up is could pick up on in that CUSP in that journey for me. And that’s all All about, you know, well, I’ll need a change of address and management. And you know, the Royal Mail and change of address service, it’s fantastic there, I may need new insurance because I’ve got a new home, that’s great. I’ve also just bought a new car because I’m traveling more now because I’m out of town. So there’s car insurance there and buying a house. So there’s mortgage there, I just got married, there’s life insurance, there’s a whole host of life processes that can be drawn up in those in that customer journey. And by creating these post personas specific for a company like post office, you then start to build out those journeys and the touch points across the whole of the organization. So you know, how will that be effective? If I went into the branch, or called the call center? Or I went online onto the web or downloaded an app? How will they all join together so that there is me a Sharon, at the center of how you’re offering your services? And then the whole concept of meal post office as a service came came out? Because it was that element of making post office, a central point in the customer journey of life really?


Dave Kemble  26:20  

How important are the quick wins, that you need to achieve in an organization that? Well, I guess, all organizations that are going through any change? Because I know when we spoke in the past, Sharon, you talked about wanting to achieve those quick wins? How do you go about doing them? And how important are they? 


Sharon Prior  26:43  

Yeah, well, quick wins are there to keep people motivated. Because gone are the days I mean, when I started in it, and in business years and years ago, and any IT project, you know, x years on that, you know, this wasn’t weeks or months, it was X number of years. So by the time you’ve done all the strategy bit is very waterfall, you know, you’ve done all the strategy bit, you know that you know how it needs to be executed, you do all your as his analysis piece and you start to work work, well walk through the the transformation process, by the time you get to the end, you start getting into the implementation, people have lost the will, you know, you know, they’d literally glaze over, everyone sort of changed out and the you know, they’re just very, very, you know, the energy levels are very low. What quick wins do and specifically in the digital sphere, because you have a digital execution, and now has this agile flavor to it, because you need to prove the capability very, very quickly to keep a the credibility of we are on the right path, but also to keep people interested. And without quick wins. Or as I like to say quick failures, I mean, you need both. And you end up wasting a lot of time and energy in people’s commitment. And because you don’t know whether you’re on the right path or not until you’ve gone so far down the line, you just got to make it work come hell or high water, which isn’t really the right approach that you want. So and, you know, design in quick wins. And I love the Agile Scrum methodology of getting sprints delivering either through the minimal viable product stance of getting, you know, testing your theory and getting some some quick results and re scoping it and then and then going again. And that iterative cycle is really important. Without it I think that’s one of the big reasons why a lot of transformations specifically in the past some very well known ones that failed spectacularly because they didn’t get that process right. 


James Rowson  29:12  

There’s a couple of things that we’ve spoken about before Sharon, whereby you’ve you’ve given us some examples of maybe some creative or innovative ways of generating excitement and quick wins and failures. I think you spoke at length before about the the role that the graduates played in some of your digital transformations. Could you could you talk about that in terms of how did you generate excitement and interest in you know, those stakeholders that maybe were a bit more resistance to change initially? How did that come about? 


Sharon Prior  29:40  

Yeah, I you know, specifically digital transformation is seen as a new thing in a lot of business, especially legacy businesses that have been around for a long time. So you’ve got a level of age differentiators between you know, your earlier question of what does digital mean to you really depends on who you are, and their experiences. And the experience of the example of my friend’s son, very innocently asked me, Well, what does digital actually mean? And, you know, younger people, Generation X, people in the millennials, I’ve grown up in a digital world. And, you know, most people over the age of 45, didn’t grow up in any digital, while they grew up in an analog world where, you know, everything was still very manual in the way things are operating. So there is a difference in thinking, you know, I’ve always been a big advocate of technology, you know, right, from a very, very young age, I’ve always been interested in improving things and making things work better. So when technology came along, to enable that it was great for me, because I really, really got, you know, got excited by it. So I always look at, you know, why do people not get excited by it? Why do some people get not get excited by in something other people do. And it’s all about your experience, and where you sit in the, in the, in the journey. And so one of the big elements of of change, go digital transformation is about change management. And part of that is how you manage people through the journey through their understanding of organizational change. And so I always advocate myself as a change manager, or a change master much more so than just the technologists or data expert or process expert. And so I built out a capability of really understanding that, you know, you can have the best strategy in the world, you can have the best technology and people that you know, working on that strategy, you’re gonna have the best data management capability there. If you don’t manage how people see, and, and get involved in the transformation, and bring them along on the journey, it will almost inevitably fail. Because all transformation is fundamentally about people and people doing something different. That’s, that’s what it is, is about. And so when I was, again, a post office, a really, really interesting culture, because of the separation from Royal Mail, still very much a government run business. And so there was some some element of a civil servant mentality in some of the people who’ve been there quite a long time. But they’re really new leaders coming in like ourselves, who came from outside of the public sector. So from the private sector and interpro stuff is with a different way of thinking. But again, there was the age differences across the organization, there was different different elements. So there was there was quite a mix of cultures coming together during my time at post office. But I really wanted to push the the thought process that really came from our younger colleagues, a those who were on our graduate program, or those that were coming through the apprenticeship schemes, because they really think different. And it wasn’t, it didn’t hit me as much as when I was eight, because I was a sponsor of the apprenticeship scheme. And I had these new apprentice that I was given a sort of town hall presentation to and I was talking about what we do a post office is in very simple terms a round, you know, how we operate and what we do and the technology that we’re using. And we’re teaching them how to use emails and what they needed to do. And one guy, I’ll never forget this. In the meeting, he so gingerly held up his hand, and he asked the question, which actually had me floored. His question was, what’s the purpose of email? And I actually stopped being the tracks. And I said, well, it’s the way we communicate with people. And he sort of put his hand down, he looked around, he still look puzzled. And because I read people very well, I think if they obviously didn’t answer your questions, no, he said, but, you know, the, why don’t you use and he started, you know, talking about, you know, it’s texting and using instant messaging, rather than using emails that Well, sometimes you just need to create a document and you need to email it to people. But afterwards, I walked away and I thought, you know, there is a real legacy that we we sit with and using email is a classic one, I mean, emails, what, 40 years old now 50 years old. We still use it to this day as the primary means of communication. Certainly back back then in 2016. That was that was the key element. Why do we not rethink how we’re using email? So I actually got some of these apprentices to do what I call reverse mentoring with our exec and to meet with our exec as mentors, as millennial mentors, to help the older leadership team really understand how the new generation of our workforce and our customers are actually coming through, so that we can really start to understand well, how, you know, why have we structured ourselves in this way? Why do we use emails? And you know, having people come in who aren’t the experts can ask the dumb questions and make you really start to theme is not dumb question. Actually, it was a really thought provoking question. But it makes you rethink simple questions. Yeah, it is a very, very simple question. But people who have been in an area for a long time, or experts in their field, take these things for granted and just live with it. And it’s an assumption they they that it can’t be changed. 


Dave Kemble  36:22  

It’s about challenging the status quo, isn’t it? Because otherwise, yeah, that’s it, there is no such thing as a silly question. Ask it once and get someone in with a fresh perspective, fresh eyes to what why do we do that? And typically, it’s that we’ve always done it that way. I remember reading, I think it was john lewis, whether they still do it or not, I don’t know. They used to do a back to the back to the floor, exercise with their senior leadership teams, where they would take people from board level and actually spend a week working in the warehouses on the shop floors, and actually speaking to the people who, who do the day to day, so that they could better understand what they needed to do as an organization, how they should adapt and change and listening to people who do the role, rather than just assuming. And I think that’s something you’ve talked about in the past is you can’t assume that everyone knows what you know. And vice versa. So it’s, it’s a really clever approach that reverse mentorship. I love it. 


Sharon Prior  37:25  

Yeah, yeah, it really is. Because it is acidic. It probes you to really think and it as you said before, no question is a dumb question. Someone’s asking you, because why you use an email? Why do we use email? Yeah, what’s the purpose of it? Is there another better way of doing things like sending around documents to you know, hundreds of people on an email, can’t guarantee that they write it, there’s a better way of doing it. There’s more collaborative tools to to to use. So yeah, but I can see a time where email in business starts to be eroded, especially internal business. You know, we should really relook at how we use these technologies now. 


Dave Kemble  38:06  

You’re absolutely right. I’m just thinking about the things that WhatsApp because when you send a message to your friends, you think I know you’ve read it. There’s two, there’s two blue ticks. I know you read this at 11:30. Oh no, I’m not having that. Yeah.


James Rowson  38:34  

So what advice Sharon, would you give to two other organizations that maybe are, you know, stuck in the legacy way of working that haven’t had to be kind of dragged, you know, into the 21st century digitally? Any kind of critical get rights or, or common pitfalls to avoid for in your experience? 


Sharon Prior  38:51  

Yeah, the first thing I would say is digital transformation is definitely not for the faint hearted. You know, I think people underestimate, really do underestimate the level of change that’s needed within an organization to really make it happen. And, yeah, I’ve been in count on countless transformation programs that have had a really great ambition. Really great objective, the strategies being written, everyone really falls behind it. But then when you start to get into the execution, it starts to get that’s where the difficulty comes in. So for me, the the greatest advice I can give anyone looking to go down this lot, this line of digital transformation, is that you really got to understand that the reality of doing digital transformation is that you’ve got to bring People together. And you’ve got to have a coordinated effort across, I would say, four main domains of what you’re doing. Let’s around, you know, the technology, the data, and the processes. And then the whole thing around change management and organizational change, because without those four coming together, and you just start, if you try to do one without the other three, it really does start to break down. So no matter how well conceived, the idea is and the communication of the the the vision and getting the the plan crafted and adjusting to it on the fly, you have to bring it all together with the right people. So you need people who are very strong technologists, to lead the technology and speak in a business language to make it really compelling. You need the data scientists. So you need people who really understand how to make use of all this unstructured data or the data that fits. You know, across the organization under people’s desks, in in computers that they haven’t really looked at, but isn’t bringing any value, you need to really understand where it all sits, and then the processes that bring it all together. So having process redesign within the mix is really, really key. So I think people really need to understand that. But this is all about changing and bringing together these domains. And really understanding how you manage change into the organization, because that’s a continuous thing. You know, my role really, in IMI Critical Engineering, is fundamentally about that change capability and bringing the leadership in to bring people together into a teamworking environment…